Die (P)ostkutsche Ep. 22: The Shadow of the Aegean

00:00:05: Hello and welcome to Postkutsche, the student podcast of The East & South-Eastern European History Department at Jardeluk Gießen.

00:00:12: This is Emily – I'll be gone again in just a moment because i'm only introducing today's episode!

00:00:16: It's all about the Shadows Of The Aegean Conference which took place in February this year at the GCSE in Gießen And In this Episode, the organizer, Shahin Yelitz gives you an insight into the conference and its themes by sharing selection on engaging interview snippets.

00:00:34: Enjoy listening!

00:00:43: Okay, welcome Professor Conlan.

00:00:47: We are now organizing a conference here in Germany about the population exchange and memory that happened between Greece and Turkey in nineteen twenty three but we would like to ask you more broader questions.

00:01:03: population exchange.

00:01:04: The first question is, what is the Lausanne Conference?

00:01:08: What was its importance for Greece and

00:01:14: Turkey?".

00:01:15: Well, Lausane is a resort town on the north edge of a very large lake in Switzerland And it was the place chosen because they had lots luxury hotels.

00:01:25: Diplomats like to stay at luxury hotels if possible To bring together All the warring parties that had been caught up in what we might call, The Greater War.

00:01:37: First World War did not end in nineteen eighteen.

00:01:40: It continued In a number of places Ireland India Many other places including Of course... ...the Aegean region as well.

00:01:49: So in nineteen twenty two They realised they have to tear-up the Treaty of Sev The previous settlement after World War I, which had been signed outside Paris.

00:01:59: in nineteen twenty with the rise of Kemal's forces pushing the Greek forces out Western Anatolia.

00:02:08: The old treaties are dead letter.

00:02:09: they have to come up with a new one.

00:02:11: and what i think is so different about Lausanne from all other treatise we've heard that often summarises Versailles but it was combination or constellation of different treaties resettling and reshaping whole world.

00:02:26: I think Lausanne is different firstly because it's still enforced today.

00:02:30: All the other treaties were ignored, torn up obviously in the case of Versailles by Hitler.

00:02:36: but we're still living with The Lausann Treaty that was signed in nineteen twenty-three as well as With a Population Exchange which Was one Of A number of Agreements.

00:02:46: That sort of Sit under the Umbrella of lausanne.

00:02:48: the Other One Being the Straits Agreement sets out the rules of who can move through the traits and who can't.

00:02:56: But I think Lausanne's also become something of a syndrome, we speak in Turkey today about the Lausannes Syndrome And it is kind of trauma that not just Turks but Greeks or others are still processing.

00:03:10: That why its an urgent matter Not for those in the region For rest us.

00:03:16: because i think key question One of the reporters at Lausanne for The Conference, Ernest Hemingway who was a journalist as well is writer wrote A Lovely Poem in which he called... Which was entitled They All Made Peace.

00:03:31: What Is Peace?

00:03:33: It's like it's conference As a peace factory.

00:03:36: But what is peace?

00:03:37: Is this just an absence Of fighting or is there presence of justice?

00:03:41: Whose Justice?

00:03:42: Winners' Justices?

00:03:44: Exhaustion trying to freeze a conflict that hasn't really been resolved.

00:03:51: So Lausanne is many things... OK, well the population exchange was signed in January of nineteen twenty-three almost in the middle of the broader Lausann conference several months before The Lausane Treaty itself and it was an agreement ostensibly, but just between Greece and Turkey.

00:04:10: Between Venizelos and Ismet İnyanir the head of Greek and Turkish delegations And it laid out terms for an exchange of populations.

00:04:20: The idea was that in order to bring a lasting peace In the Near East It is necessary For so called Greeks To be pushed relocated from Anatolia, apart from a small exception of the Greek community in Istanbul and to be relocated and resettled in Greece.

00:04:41: And that those so-called Turks left in Greece should be moved east and settled in Anatolia.

00:04:50: I'm nervous about using the word Greek and Turk because these communities was not language, but religion.

00:05:01: So it's the Muslims that were moved from west to east and Christians from East to West.

00:05:07: so obviously in a region which had been The Ottoman Empire A very multi-faith, multiethnic community There are many instances of communities where It wasn't possible to define them quite clearly.

00:05:24: And this what Kursun?

00:05:26: the British Foreign Secretary had with a British delegation called The Unmixing of Populations, which is very loaded term.

00:05:35: Unmixed implies that community's mixed up in English to be mixed-up isn't good thing.

00:05:41: it implies you're psychologically unstable and yes the Ottoman Empire instabilities, but it presented a model which I think today we can find some as in our set of ideals.

00:05:58: A positive idea that is possible to live alongside neighbours who are different from you and might speak a different language at home or have a different religion than you may have other differences with you.

00:06:11: And now come look back on this form making peace and of unmixing very differently.

00:06:20: We use terms like ethnic cleansing to refer, to refer to this.

00:06:24: so one of the things this conference has been touching on is this question of how can we have moved so radically from celebrating this?

00:06:35: This as a great success Lausanne.

00:06:37: it's a peacemaking triumph to seeing it as a disaster with lasting traumas that are continuing to make it difficult for us to live with our neighbour.

00:06:51: Who are you?

00:06:52: Me, my name is Christina.

00:06:56: I'm not quite sure who i am... ...I'am finding out half Swedish and half Greek but I was born raised in Sweden.

00:07:07: It's a bit difficult to feel Swedish or look greek so..who am I?

00:07:12: I don't know.

00:07:13: What's the population exchange for you?

00:07:17: The Population Exchange is a new adventure For me.

00:07:24: My grandmother and my grandfather came from this tiny village in Turkey And they had to leave it, too To go to Greece And... ...the things that i know Is the things That ive heard From my Grandmother & from my Aunt And everything is orally transmitted.

00:07:46: Nothing has written down, so I'm trying to get all the bits and pieces together in order make sense for me.

00:07:58: But why do you need that?

00:08:00: In order understand who i am... ...in order feel my roots.

00:08:06: I'm in the middle of, you know a generation change.

00:08:08: My parents are getting old and my sister-in-law we're talking about should We keep the house and stuff?

00:08:15: And The House in Greece that's my grandmother.

00:08:19: my grandfather was given the land That it stands on.

00:08:23: this is where we have our roots.

00:08:24: This Is Where Our Roots Are The Deepest and i need to Know What Happened There And Also How They Got To.

00:08:32: You Know Get This Land.

00:08:34: so It's a very big topic for me as, as human being.

00:08:41: So you inherited all these stories from your grandparents etc.

00:08:45: but do you think that you also inherited trauma

00:08:48: or

00:08:48: hardships,

00:08:49: emotional hardships?

00:08:51: Now you're talking to the psychotherapy student!

00:08:54: Yes I do think we inherit trauma and i think it's both good and bad because trauma is not always... ...a bad thing.

00:09:03: It shapes you As a person But you can become aware of it, and then use into something good.

00:09:10: And I guess that's what i'm doing!

00:09:13: Yes...I didn't hear the trauma but need to get data in order for me understand why my personality is as it is.

00:09:28: Do you recall your first moment when you realized a different identity?

00:09:34: refugee identity when you were a child, etc.

00:09:37: You recall any moment like that?

00:09:40: Talking about Mimi or talking about the exchange...

00:09:44: Talking about you!

00:09:44: ...talking about me.

00:09:46: Yeah I was put in Greek school In Sweden and i didn't do very well Because other children they had greek as native language And I did not.

00:09:59: So I got stuck with The first year Like the eight-year old books for eight-year old children, when I was like eleven or twelve.

00:10:08: And I was bullied for that!

00:10:09: So yes...I was different and i always felt maybe im not worthy to say that Im Greek Maybe..i cant really claim my greekness because ive wasn't born there.

00:10:26: I only have bits of pieces in history together.

00:10:30: so yes....i feel different but on the other hand being Swedish as well, because even though Swedish is my mother tongue I don't look Swedish.

00:10:43: So what was your grandparents' experience as a refugee cultural group?

00:10:49: Were they segregated in Greece?

00:10:52: or how were they narrating... ...being refugees coming from Turkey?

00:10:57: I'm not sure but now my grandmother was very small when she came to Greece And they were given land in a village that was completely filled with exchange people.

00:11:12: So I don't think that they experienced much of, uh...of that because there all- They were hundred percent from the same you know?

00:11:21: They had this story about fifteen years ago.

00:11:26: i was sitting In my living room in Greece talking About My grandmother With my husband And I wasn't sure about where in Turkey that my grandmother came from.

00:11:40: So, i started checking Google Maps which was quite new fifteen years ago and after a few tries... ...I found the village!

00:11:51: That was surrealistic completely.

00:11:56: After awhile even found a Facebook page with this village and reached out to them very warmly welcomed by the community.

00:12:05: I still have some contact on Messenger with, with some of the villagers there and it was... It felt amazing!

00:12:14: And at some point in this Facebook page There was a woman talking about her book and i reached out to her asking how do you get your book?

00:12:27: Because she really wanted it so much that they only had a photocopy And we started to chat on Messenger a lot.

00:12:39: We felt that were are the same side of history and clicked, so continued our conversations there at some point live streamed together for couple hours.

00:12:53: I think it was talking about different histories singing songs.

00:13:01: It's been.

00:13:02: it's really meaningful for me.

00:13:03: It feels like I found a cousin or sister, I don't know if it Really means something?

00:13:13: So when you look back into the journeys of your

00:13:18: great

00:13:18: grandparents from Turkey to Greece from Greece to Sweden If you have to summarize all this one hundred year Which word would do use to describe?

00:13:36: Oh, that's difficult.

00:13:39: Just one word!

00:13:46: Oh God... maybe the home is where the heart is.

00:13:54: I don't know.

00:13:57: yeah Home Is Where The Heart Is.

00:14:01: it sounds really childish but in a way i don't.

00:14:11: Okay,

00:14:12: so now look at me and tell me home is where the heart is.

00:14:21: Home Is Where The Heart Is?

00:14:23: Thank you that was all

00:14:25: amazing!

00:14:26: You're an amazing storyteller

00:14:27: thank you.

00:14:30: That's it for today episode.

00:14:33: I hope you liked it And if you'd like to see more from the conference Feel free To Check Out Our Blog Where You Can Also Find Photos & Additional Materials.

00:14:42: See You In Two Weeks Bye.